Bloggers come and bloggers go. Sadly, my one of my blogfriends felt the need to remove his blog because his wife found it. His blog had been a place where he felt safe to reveal all of himself so I wrote back telling him I hoped he had somewhere in life to get that need met. His response was that "given how multifaceted we can be, is there ever really a single place?" He feels there can be TMI in your primary relationship...that your partner doesn't really want to know about your struggles.
Hm...says I.
Then discussions with Sparkly Man about monogamy and polyamory bring up all sorts of questions for me about intimacy. He does NOT agree that people who choose to be sexual with more than one person can be truly, deeply intimate with their Beloved.
Hm....again.
I experience many kinds of intimacy.
There is a bond that cannot be attained any other way than knowing someone for a very long time and going through life and experiences with.
There is the kind of intimacy that comes with living with someone, although people can live in the same house for years and never really know one another.
There is a kind of intimacy that comes with being a Courtesan. Men tend to share more of their real, deep selves with us because they know we won't judge them. Hell...we're whores for heaven's sake, who are we to judge? But even this aside, many of us come to whoredom because we are empaths and compassionate people who provide a space everywhere we go where people feel safe to express all of who they are. I remember one time during an interview process, this man just kept talking and talking for hours. I listened with all of my being and he felt it, so just kept opening up more and more. At the end of the conversation, he looked at me, surprised, and told me he had never told anyone half of that stuff...that it was too much...and he liked me and wanted to meet again, but couldn't because I knew too much about him.
I have a very different kind of intimacy with my kids. I carried them inside my body, they sucked at my breast, I wiped their butts, stayed up with them when they were sick. It's Big, that kind of intimacy.
Workshops provide a opportunity for a very unique kind of intimacy. We know nothing about the other person's life on a day to day basis...don't know if they are married, if they have kids, what their jobs, hobbies, interests are. Yet, we know deepest darkest secrets that they might never reveal to others in their daily lives.
Here in blogland..if you find me interesting and want to meet offline, you know how I orgasm, that I love anal sex, have been a whore, the struggles I have in relationship. But aside from my eyes, you have no idea what I look like, what my presence feels like or what my voice sounds like.
Sex brings a different kind of intimacy for me. When I go deeply into the experience, a connection is created that is beyond words. I have a capacity to really feel someone touch my heart. Not always, but the potential is there. And even if I don't reach that place, there's a sweet sharing sort of intimacy created. I think of my first woman lover...we still resurrect that fun feeling from time to time even though we haven't been sexual for a number of years. I remember being a a women's party and looking at each other across the room, both thinking about the secret adventures we had shared, then going in the bathroom at one point to make out. Shared naughty trysts are so fun and provide a type of intimacy that's different than others.
There have been times with Tantra partners where we did soul gazing and shared profound experiences that I can only describe as a deeply profound, almost cosmic form of intimate connection that defies words. There was another kind of deep body intimacy that I reached with my Master form time to time when I would submit to him.
Secrets in and of themselves, create a form of intimacy. We know this, share this, others don't; we have a special bond.
I have a special form of intimacy with my women's group. I feel I can be all of me no matter what...even when I can't be all of me, they fully understand and continue to provide love, compassion and support for that inability. I blows me away.
And then there are two people on the planet who I feel so intimate with that no one can approach. They are my friend "Anne" and my daughter, Mariah. These two women know everything, see everything, are my heart, my soul and my guts. I've known both for over 25 years. I know that I will grow old with them, they will be my constants, my North Stars always, no matter where I go, what I'm doing, who I'm with. They are the first two people I think of when I need support and if they aren't available to me, I feel totally lost and alone. I am in love with both of them. With them, I feel totally seen. Totally.
I've never been sexual with either one. And I won't. I've "cheated" on them repeatedly, made my "primary" relationships with men who come and go while they remain the constants in my life.
And while the 25 year thing seems like it's a bit moot at this point (like 21 years away at best), I wonder what it would be like to have that kind of intimacy with someone which included a deep and profound Beloved sexual relationship in the mix.
I wonder why it's the status quo belief that only monogamous people are the truly intimates. I know many poly people who report that the intimacy with their Beloved increases when they open their relationship. This is pretty universal in the couples I talk to.
I wonder why sex with another automatically negates the potential level of intimacy reached in a Beloved relationship.
I wonder if it's a different experience for women in the intimacy department. I still haven't written my nature vs. nuture post(s) but I continue to feel that we women are different critters than men. And I don't think that a bad thing unless we make it so. Do we women approach intimacy in a different way than men do? I mean...it's no secret in studies and such that women do lots of their intimate connecting with other women, while the men rely on their wives for intimacy.
I don't feel, as my blogfriend does, that there is TMI possible for my Beloved. That's the relationship where I want most to be mutually seen, known and connected with on all levels. Other relationships, with varying degrees and kinds of intimacy can be fully satisfying and fufilling even though they don't reach those heights of a Beloved. I'm not sure what configuration of connections makes for the best relationships. I'm not sure if people who are vastly different can ever be as truly intimate as I am with Anne and Mariah. I'm not sure if sex seals the deal of depth of true intimacy.
Perhaps it's that I don't really know what true, deep intimacy is. I thought it was being mutually seen, known, and understood by another. I thought it was a deep feeling of safety, of enfolding, of exposing my inner workings, heart, mind and soul and having them being held as gifts freely given to another. I thought it was a closeness that included all my warts, wrinkles, and flaws along with my wonderful, yummy pieces and parts...and knowing I'm adored because of all of it. And offering that back, revelling in all of my intimate partner. I thought it was feeling like "home." But maybe there's something I don't know about it yet.
Savory, Spicy Yams
1 month ago
32 comments:
Dear heart....
I tend to think you've got a damned good grasp on things. Like with most things of the heart, there's always room to learn more or to understand at a deeper level something already learned...but I think you've got a good grasp on what it means to be intimate....more than most.
I'd really like to read that nature vs nurture theory you've got.
It sounds like a multi post topic. *smiles* Or maybe a multi blog topic. *smiles bigger*
You know....I appreciate your remarks on so many topics. Mostly because I just don't bother to say this stuff out loud. Most people need to hear it though. Its just that I'm not always the right person to say it....just the right person to sit when when its really understood. *smiles*
I'd have been able to really understand this post a lot better if I knew what TMI stands for. I'm not up on all the lingo well enough to just get it with some initials.
thanks love R
ps Anne and Mariah, Anne and Mariah, Anne and Mariah
(said to the same inflection as Marcia Marcia Marcia from the Brady bunch movie)
wink wink
Thank you for this post. I stopped by, as I often do, for comfort, and yes, it was here. Sadness, but also comfort.
I think with each relationship there is a level of intimacy that we have yet to discover. Since being sick, my Mama and I are different, closer. We relate as women as well as mother and child.
In my relationship with The Knight, there is no such thing as too much or too close. There never will be. Sometimes it's awkward to stand before him stripped bare in every sense of the word and other times it's liberating. Each time is different and every interaction leaves me yearning for more. Sex only kicks it up, elevates it to astronomical heights, so much so that when it's over the fall back to earth feels as though it will surely be my undoing. Yet there he is, back for more...offering another trip into orbit the way only my Sir, my husband possibly can.
Just my jostled thoughts.
I think there may be no way to say which type of relationships provide more intimacy. In my experience, I've found that the intimacy in a relationship is wholly about the two souls connecting, not about whether they're monogamous, polyamorous, mother and child, friends, etc. I think that might be why a healthy, open relationship tends to draw primary partners closer together. To have a healthy, trusting relationship outside of what is commonly taught to us needs strength of character to unravel the hurdles and an acceptance and generous love of your partner in who they are, not just who they are to you.
A lovely and thought-provoking post. I believe that there are as many different types of intimacy as there as of love.
He does NOT agree that people who choose to be sexual with more than one person can be truly, deeply intimate with their Beloved.
*chuckle* I personally believe that even though I am sexual with more than one person, I am extraordinarily intimate with my beloved Apollo. Being able to talk with him about my desires and needs - even if they are desires and needs that I cannot fulfil with him - enables us to become closer. Sex is in intimacy of its own, but it's not the only intimacy, and our relationship is made up of so much more than that :)
*hugs* Dee
How can anybody make a claim as to what 'true intimacy' is and isn't?
Is there an operational definition on which consensus and statistically significant studies exist showing deep similarities in perception? I would guess not.
So we are dealing with a very personal concept defined on an individual level and by individual experiences. For the person you were conversing with, 'true intimacy' is only possible in a monogamous relationship because that is what he/she believes in. For you, there are many more kinds. And you are both right in your subjective realities. Add a third person, and more definitions may become possible.
"I wonder why sex with another automatically negates the potential level of intimacy reached in a Beloved relationship.".......It doesn't. It can get in the way if the other is pissed off about it.
Now I don't know if you are being sarcastic, but I think you know well what intimacy is. You know too that I with Nature and Nurture come from another universe than you. I have been intimate with many men, but never sexual. My best friend and I are intimate. We share deeply, look deeply into each others eyes and see the warrior and leader within, we hug, we kiss in that OH so European way, (on the cheek). I have a girlfriend who I am intimate with and who tells me nothing verbally, but her eyes...they tell me everything. You are a goddess of intimacy but you are living in a world where your personal experience outstrips that of many. I understand your sparkly guy point of view but I don't agree. I am intimate with my son, my lover, my parents and my friends , and even the love I feel for them differs. However for me your discription of intimacy would be mine of loving, of choosing to be seen, and seeing the other, ....sometimes...I think we can be intimate and know nothing at all about the people we are it....and we subsitute that in our minds for loving....hmmmmm
Smile. Nice post. I particularly like the way you've identified different forums and different types of intimacy.
For obvious reasons, I have to disagree about TMI in relationships. I do think that "the Beloved" is an idealization that no real human being can ever actually meet. So, with real people and their insecurities and misunderstandings and flaws, I do think that TMI is easily possible, in any relationship.
I do think that 'being seen' is important, but I'm not sure I really understand all that that can mean. After all, I can feel 'seen' when I'm really not, and I can be 'seen' in this moment by this person, but not in the nxt by the same person.
I also think the feeling of relaxation--being able to let one's guard down, is important. But is it part of intimacy?
I'm still figuring it out myself, obviously. ;)
Perv
Hi, Greenwoman..yes we are, at times, like to little peas in a podlette, indeed. The other posts are milling. One never knows when they will emerge, smiles. Hope your day goes well!
Hey, R...you Sweetie. TMI= Too Much Information.
And you crack me up (as always..you light me up big time), "Marcia"..it's the spaces of time, contact and local in between, sweetie..not the heart.
Awww...Mandy...hugs for the sads. I'm glad you find comfort here.
Hi, Butterfly...you have that intimacy that the Sparkly Man talks about..the best of both worlds, it seems. I know your landings aren't always gentle, but they are profound and you are Blessed with him.
Hi, Juliette and welcome here!
All you had to say was so eloquently said and hit me with a deep resonance. I hear you saying something I also believe which is that if someone is an intimacy based person they take that with them to every relationship they find themselves in. And if not, that follows them, too.
Thanks for stopping by and adding to the discussion.
Very true, Thais. And truth is that I don't think, in the end that Sparkly Man sees it as the only way...just his choice. Those are his words, but we all agree that these discussions are best undertaken in person over hours of discovering the nuances of meanings. Blog, emails and completeness of communication don't go hand in hand oftentimes.
Good stuff, Warrior..and No I wasn't being sarcastic at all. I consider myself an intimacy based person...or as I always say "I don't do shallow well." I don't think that Sparkly Man thinks that the only kind of intimacy possible is with a Lover...he, too, sees there are different kinds of intimacy..he is just speaking to one type he wants and which he wants to do within a context of monogamy. Of course, from that, all sorts of conversations stem, flow, diverge, return, and travel in the interest if pondering and finding interesting ways of perceiving. I am truthfut when I say that there are things about intimacy that I don't know. I don't know the kind of long term, monogamous true seeing and being seen by a partner. So I do have lots to learn.
Sometimes it's easier to be intimate and truthful at a workshop..you'll never see this person again. Why do you think that it's so easy for people to be truthful in Blogland? Because they are anonymous. They can be totally seen yet not seen at all.
Hi, Perv...I don't think the ideal can be met (and I'm not sure I would want it to..I likey human warts). At the same time, I'm also not an ideal parent, yet chose not to abort...and continue to try to find my way toward that ideal with all of my tools and to the best of my ability.
Likewise, if the "right" person who had the same desire and Path showed up to be My Beloved, I would pursue the Path as fervently as I do my parenting. THE most important part, for me, would be total transparency on both sides. I don't think one can ever hope to come close to finding that relationship unless that path is pursued.
At the same time, as I said, I can have very satisfying fulfilling relationships that aren't Beloved ones. I have my Loverman. There are lots of places we meet on lots of levels. But while he has an interest in my inner well being, he has no common language or worldview to share the real inner juicy stuff with that makes my heart soar. I'm just not that intimate with him. He's not My Beloved. He's the Life partner who I love. That's enough.
Being seen..interesting one. Part of the act of intimacy for me is just the disclosure part. There is an energy released when I disclose things I have energy about keeping to myself. My closest sex partners know my deep, dark fantasies. Just the telling is huge for me and brings me closer to them. So it's an exercise that opens me no matter what the response.
Then there is when I am seen by the other..a different process and intent entirely. I don't know if we can ever really understand another until we get into their brains (like a Vulcan Mind Meld). Until that day we don't know if another's green is our blue, all the connotations can be understood between two humans. But at times..and you know those times if you've done Spirit work..where you just know/feel that the person sees things and the world in the same way..that you are on the same page and such. And that when you check in they sense the same thing.
In the end, I cannot disagree with any of your points on a theoretical level...but I do believe we humans strive for more a Beloved is a possibility on an experiential level even if a flawed ideological premise.
Hello, Prem Web...
Thanks for stopping by.
I have chosen to not publish comments that have no intent other than advertising themselves. If you want to add to the discussion as it pertains to the posts, then your name will be there for people to visit you on the merits of what you have to add to the conversation.
Blessings!!!
You're cute Gillette. Generous and patient even with people wishing to take advantage of you. I want to be you.
This is a great post, and the comments are also great. My old friend and I were talking today about how nice it is to have the trust we formed so many years ago ready made for our reunion. I will have to do something about Google... or not.
Heaps and piles of appreciation,
Steve
Hi, Steve...oh you don't want to be me right now...believe me. Jeebus...crying kids all over the place. You'd go nuts..I am, for sure.
I'm not sure what the reference is to Google???
And know that I appreciate you, too. You've been a good friend. Hugs!!
Hi Gillette!
It's been a while since I've stopped by here, but as usual you have something profound to share. You have talked about this in the past too, and I have thought about it on several occasions. When I first thought about it, I knew it has to be just one person for me and for her, even if poly works for others. I try to think about having a more open relationship, but it just wouldn't be for me, I would be too jealous, and worried all the time. I guess I'm just too old fashioned...
When I get back to the US, maybe we can still get together for coffee and talk about it some more.
Cheers!
Hey, Fuse...how fun that you stopped by...and yeah..I hope we get to have that meet when you pass by. I'll sure make the effort (if I'm still here...and if not, I'll be in LA so maybe we can meet there).
I don't think there's any one way to do relationship. I don't think anyone has to give any reasons for their choices, no matter which way they swing (smiles).
But just as if someone is talking to me about a homebirth, telling me they aren't safe...I'll remind them that they are off base statistically. If you don't feel safe at home, fine..but don't tell me that they aren't safe. They are..YOU just don't feel safe there. And you don't have to.
Likewise...if you don't feel you want to be intimate with more than one person, fine. But don't tell me that others who choose that lifestyle aren't intimates. I know it isn't true.
I'm thinking that writing this, and reading all the responses has helped remind me that I have so many areas of intimacy and so many I feel intimate with. I truly am Blessed.
Oops, sorry Gillette. Thinking other people can read my mind is one of my weaknesses.
Because I have a unique name, people can easily track me down with search engines. Most of the time I'd rather not be found, but in the case of the friend I mentioned that fact was a blessing. The story really doesn't belong here, though, so I'll send you an e-mail.
You're right, the thought of having responsibility for another person's upbringing terrifies me. I want to be more like you in some respects. Like sexiness, for example.
Steve
Hey, Steve..will look for the email. Hugs. And thanks for being sweet.
Gillette- as usual, your comments and observations on intimacy are so insightful...almost frighteningly insightful!
Thank you, from my heart.
Alex
As always, wonderful expose on life and love.
Thank you
Kahuna
You bet, Alex..and thank YOU for being so sweet!!!
Thank, Kahuna..happy to hear your voice here. Blessings and hugs to Babushka.
Gillette -- I have little to add... I agree with you, and with many of your commenters... there is not one way of being intimate. For me, the problem is often that I think I am approaching true intimacy with a lover, and something derails it. I think perhaps that says something about my own readiness.
Tryingtolearn
I am always amazed at how many types of intimacy there seem to be. Most begin with some sharing of information and if taken to the next level...that other conduit of information - touch.
Paradoxically ...as you mentioned...sometimes intimacy is threatened by sharing too much information or TMI as you abbreviate it. I recently had the opportunity to have my first BDSM experience with a wonderful person ...but had so many conflicting images I found myself thrown back to the role of suitor rather than "top" or "master". I had devoured everything I could find on the subject and was literally in an information overload...not the least of which was trying to overcome societal conditioning to "be nice"...quite frustrating...and suspect just as frustrating for my partner. What I am struggling to communicate is sometimes our thinking interferes with what our inner selves knows it wants to do...the smooth flow of action/reaction/pleasure is replaced with...analysis and paralysis...instead of doing. So indeed ...I think not only do our partners/co-intimates get inundated with TMI...but we do it to ourselves as well.
Perhaps it does, Marianne...and perhaps it's just a matter of degree, time and moving forward a bit, getting closer...both taking a step back when it gets too close, but then rebuilding but starting at another level??? Would time and staying the course shift things even higher?
Hi, Tryingtolearn...
Interesting point about the being in the mind thing. That isn't what I had thought of, but I definitely agree that being in the mind rather than just experience can be a downer during sex. Where the TMI thing would come in here for me would be just to stop and speak about what was going on inside me to shift the energy. Like "OK..I'm not in my body, so maybe if we just stop, take a bit here, breath and begin again"...that might shift the energy enough so that when we return, I'm out of my brain and into my body/energy of the moment. Make sense?
I'm speaking more of having information about my emotional state or something that I've done that I think I have to hide. As a very wise friend if mine once said (I believe, in fact it was R from above, smiles): one doesn't tell the truth for one of two reasons. Either it's not important at all, so you you don't think about it...or it's really important. It's those things we label as really important (and we're the only ones who can do the labelling) that are the most important to tell.
If I didn't have energy around the telling, it wouldn't have meaning for me. And if it has meaning for me, why would I want to put up a wall between myself and the person I want to have the most intimate relationship with?
Ha. Beautiful post sweetie. And sparkly man, as I well know, (er, not that I know him well, or at all for that matter) anyway...he doesn't know what he's talking about...good articles from Eric Francis on this stuff at http://www.planetwaves.net/compersion/
Love to you.
It takes a lot more than sex to be totally intimate ... mental and emotional intimacy are much harder to touch than a penis and vagina. Sex is so commonplace that, aside from feeling good, it is not all that intimate any longer.
While you can love many individuals concurrently, I think that there can only be a single beloved at a time
Thanks for the link, Adrienne..will go check it out.
Hi, George...
Ah..but don't you think there's sex and then there's making love? Hm...interesting one about loving lots but having one Beloved...thanks for that one.
George,
I hope that isn't true George. And I suppose it's how we personally define Beloved also. What about committed, intimate triads and quads and...? I certainly know I can love more than one and have sex with more than one but I haven't created a more than one beloved situation in my life. Not that I need too or am yearning for that but then again... right now I can think of one man in particular that I'd enjoy doing that with. Not that I can really imagine him as my primary partner and being emmeshed (and depended on) in my life as my husband is...I can hardly imagine experiencing the intimacy I share with my husband with anyone else but I do strive for that level of truth and intimacy with others. I can think of two women friends in my life that I'm not sexual with but would almost consider them my beloveds--but then I suppose the sex is an important aspect of the beloved that's imporant to me. But I can certainly imagine him as my beloved. In many ways, I already do experience him as such and we don't even have sex either! But human relationships are complicated. I believe I've known others who have multiple beloveds.
I think it's true that I have no real emotional intimacy with C. because I fuck others.
Not.
Thanks for the "more" Adrienne!
And yes, Tom..yours would definitely be a relationship I can point to as a real life example of how opening up a relationship with honesty can enliven that bond in ways nothing else can. It's not always easy. It's always a process and takes time. But the truth is so sexy and brings so much juice to the individual that it can only bring tons more when shared with the Beloved.
I know it isn't the Path for everyone, nor would I even begin to suggest it's "the way" for everyone. But I do think it a viable, juicy way to do relationship. I've seen what honesty and transparency about everything (including possible sexual interest in others) does to bring couples closer when done consciously. It's the only thing I've seen that enlivens 12+ year relationships. It's the only thing I've seen that totally recharges a relationship that was formerly dying. And I've seen it happen lots.
Asking what true intimacy is is analogous to asking a historian for a true interpretation of history. Only the consumer of the intimacy, the intimates, can decide what it is. And for the outsiders, always jealous, we can say something absolute (like I can never have intimacy with my wife because she has other lovers) takes us back to the old patriarchal fantasies of the absolute vision from no where, the sky god that knows better than you. Honesty, communication, transparency disappear under such a foundational regime.
Loved your post.
Thanks for stopping by, VSK. I like: "Only the consumer of the intimacy, the intimates, can decide what it is." Pretty...and I fully agree.
When I read about the blog friend removing thier blog, I thought it might have been Perv as his is down. I miss reading it, and I understand everyone needs thier privacy. When I read through the comments and saw his, I was glad to see that he's still in the community.
Hey, Sheen! How goes it? Yes...he is and it's a good thing. He has lots to share. Nice to hear from you!
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