One of the things I love about Blogland is the support and community it creates. When Tom wrote me in support the Little Witch doing a Carnival On Feminism, my first response was that I would try and think of something but that in general, I just piss feminists off. He replied that Lina had "...asked a very interesting question whether sex workers help or set back feminism..."
The reason I generally piss off feminists isn't only because I'm a sex worker who's proud to stand and say what's she's done. It's because they don't usally appreciate my flavor of Feminism and my viewpoint on the prevailing form of Feminism. Because it's like talking about Religion and Politics and Abortion, I generally shy away from the conversation as I get tired of the lightening that comes my way. But, oh well...I'm stepping out these days so will again here.*
Does escorting help or set back Feminism? I don't think it does either. Or maybe it does both, depending on the situation. I guess I'm kind of frustrated and sad that the question needs to be asked because I'm frustrated and sad about Feminism in general. And on so, So, SO many levels I don't really care about the discussion any more as I did enough of it years ago. I'm over talking about it because I decided instead to quietly do.
Wow...until about fifteen years ago, I would never in a gazzillion years have thought those words would ever come out of my mouth. I was a radical, Patriarchy Hating Feminist for more years of my life than not. I blamed men for their evil plan when they created The Patriarchy and its ultimate cause for every ill on the planet. Even jello was part of the sinister master plan (joke). I had a vision of communities where only women and children lived. For sex, we would bus in a load of men from time to time...then they would go away, leaving the rest of us to live in harmony and peace. I knew that anyone who didn't understand the One True dynamics of the world was either blind, ignorant, foolish or puppets...or some other awful thing. I was so vocal and militant about it, many people noticed. I was labelled a Man Hater by more than one observer. The Silent Male of a few months ago and I would have had a great time talking...er...shouting at each other, smile.
But I went through a huge transformation in my personality and outlook on life. It led me from being a Man Hater to a Whore who decided to participate with men in our healing. Part of that journey was looking at myself and my feminist ways and how destructive they were to me and, in my opinion, all of us.
I got tired of seeing myself as a Victim.
I learned that I cannot become empowered by tenaciously clinging to my Victimhood. Every time I speak about how I have been "wronged" as a woman, I am declaring and reinforcing my victimhood. Singing the I AM A VICTIM song over and over and over until it's embedded in every brain synapse does not lead to a strong vision of the self. It might give the outer illusion of strength, as anger and loud bitching often can. But the loudest shouter is not the person of power. They have to shout so they look powerful to cover up the fact that they don't believe they have any at all.
How in the hell does a VICTIM be truly powerful? A very different "battle" ensues when it originates from a place of standing in my power rather than screaming for the world to change itself so that my Victim can feel safe.
I don't know what the lingo of today's feminist is. When I was mucking around in that world, one of the battle cries was a yearning to revisit the definition of "power" from that of "power over" to "power within." When a battle is fought by a Victim, they fight in a way to regain "power over." When a truly powerful woman stands in her own light and follows her Path, she beams a power from within. It's that power that will ultimately win the day because it's centered and balanced and knows itself. It doesn't create more enemies, blaming everything around it for its situation. It builds bridges to find a common way to resolution. This Power just quietly goes about its business, following where its led to impact the immediate world around it. It knows that change starts right here. It decides to let Victims scream the big, loud, song and knows that nothing much gets done on that level because Victim operates in a way that separates.
Women don't exist to support Feminism. Feminism exists to support women. When women remain Victims, they need to have others around to support their feelings of "rightness." If someone disagrees with their "club" they become "the enemy" and lose that club's support. Lines are drawn, the battle ensues, with Victim demeaning Other to make it's point (dirty battle tactics of someone with no internal sense of power). All the while the one who thinks differently just asks for the right to exist as they choose. Victim requires that everyone have its point of view. It needs the support of the club to survive. The club is the only place it can find strength because it has none itself.
If a woman, say like a Whore, challenges that viewpoint they come under the crossfire. Victim clings tenaciously to the rightness of its position and need to crush, ostracize the 'other,' to maintain that position. I keep wondering how feminism supports women when it takes this tactic. I certainly don't see that it does. What I get is the message that we all have to conform to the standard MO or we are attacked more fervently than "the Patriarchy." I thought this was the antitheis of what Feminism is supposed to stand for. I understand the dynamic and need for that within the Vicim mindset (must squash those close dissenters to solidify our position) but refuse to support the machine that creates it.
When feminists finally and fully embrace their power from within, they won't have anything to say to women who choose to be sex-workers. They won't care because they will feel so strong internally that they won't feel threatened by women who make a choice different than the ones they make.
I understand it's easy to have the Victim's mindset. There's lots out there that isn't pretty. But to be truly effective, I found that I needed to make the choice to change my perspective and see differently. This Whore's message to Feminists is to please let Victim Go. Or don't...your choice and I will support you in that choice. If you find seeing yourself as a Victim as productive or that it makes you happy, go for it with my full blessings. But if you want to find peace within yourself, quit requiring that I look at myself as one because I won't go there with you. If you keep focusing on me, I'm only going to piss you off...and what's the point of that? Life's too damn short and precious to spend so much of it being pissed.
I see you as my Sister. I wish you could see me as yours and treat me like one.
So back to the original question: Does Escorting help or set back feminism? Just for fun, let's say both.
Sex Work does set back Feminism in that it gives some Angry Feminists the opportunity to judge other women, divide women and sing the Victim song a little louder in yet, another area. And since in Victim mode we need to have someone to blame, let's just point out that this isn't the "fault" of escorts, but rather the Feminst's choice to separate and judge their sisters.
Sex Work doesn't set back Feminism in that it has no impact on any individual or movement unless unless the individual or movement decides to let it do that to them. Much as I wish I could wave my magic wand, I can't control your feeling like a victim.
Sex workers are Feminists in that we're women standing for our choices no matter how anyone else around us says we should be acting or conducting our lives. We refuse to listen to the Religious Right, to judgemental people in the Harper Valley PTA, arrogant people who decide they know what's best for us because of how "sick" we must be, and Angry Feminists. That would be my brand of Feminism- the one that I live and that remains my commitment today.
________
Important Post Script
As this is the internet and I have no idea who will be reading this, thus which buttons will get pushed creating a person unable to hear what I'm saying, I want to state very clearly that I abhor the idea of prostitution anywhere. My definition of prostitution is where anyone does anything they don't want to do just for the money, whether it's selling their body, a vacuum cleaner, or their time sitting at a computer terminal..and obviously Trafficking Women is in a different league than selling a vacuum, OK? These are not feminist issues... they are societal issues, humanist issues. They are neither the same thing nor the same discussion of a woman or man who chooses to become a sex-worker and that decision's impact on feminism. OK?
*Where's Toy when I need him????
Savory, Spicy Yams
1 month ago
33 comments:
I have only been out of the business a mere few months and it seems like a lifetime. I had no idea how slow life is in the normal world. I have to say that I have been extremely lucky to have only been involved at the high end of the sex business.
I once thought of moving to Amsterdam and starting up a specialty business there. I am just rambling a little about the sex trade and my experience for the benefit of your readers that might not know what I used to do. I guess what I am trying to demonstrate is that I do know something about the sex trade.
What I do know about this business is that it is mostly the women that are severely exploited. There are so many problems that arise in this trade because it is mostly illegal it isn’t funny.
Are they feminists? Does this type of work set back feminism? I ask who cares? I know a lot of women in this business and the issue of feminism is not the most active thought on their mind.
I love Women especially the ones in this trade. I know how hard it is to do what they do. I think that people especially other women should start to look at “Hookers, escorts, working girls, A rose by any other name” with more respect and understanding. It is more important to see them first as equals before we view them as feminists.
I think that one of the best things you said here was "I see you as my Sister. I wish you could see me as yours and treat me like one."
I think that all you can do is continue to set an example of what being a sister means. Being a victim can never lead to any kind of power, you're right, although sometimes I think it's just one stage, where someone identifies the problems, hopefully passed through quickly on the way to identifying solutions.
Good Sunday afternoon to you, Gillettte !
Interesting post. As was the one below. I learn when I come here to read.
I've never thought much of feminism. To me, I simply either had opinions or knowledge about something or not...
So I focused here on 'victim' mentality.
I think the most progress that gets made in ANY of our lives is whn we begin to recognize our choices and asset that our repsonse to what happens in life, is to a large part, a choice.
That frees us eventually.
The process from here ot there may not be easy or painless, but it sure beats being stuck in victimhood.
Feeling at the mercy of, rather than acknowledging that this is how your brain is working, is disempowering.
Knowing what works for you and what doesn't, and following the path that makes you feel good about yourself inside, with an inner peacefulness, is where our lives intersect more and more often with happiness.
So.... feminist or not, we each I think essentially are trying to head in the same direction... Even if it often doesn't sound like it.
Why is it that so many feminists are regarded as cold bitches? Being a feminist may have been very important 20, 40 or 50 years ago but I really think it is less so now. No matter how hard they work to have feminism and all it stands for a part of everyday life and values, there will always be a great number of people, mostly males I guess, who will never consider any woman as more than a housekeeper, baby factory, sex toy or whatever ... as long as she (they) is (are) under his thumb. How dare any woman make more money than I, have dare any woman refuse sex when I want it ... etc., etc.
Hi Gillette,
Coming from a place and time where men were expected to be chivalrous in their dealings with the opposite sex, I had a tendency to get caught up in Victim-Saviour-Villain games in my early relationships. I learned the hard way not to get involved with women who saw themselves as victims. Sooner or later the saviour gets recast as the villain.
Though I reached adulthood before the modern feminist movement, I always thought women were, in fact, men's equal (if not superior).
Who am I to judge another person? As long as they aren't bringing pain and suffering into other peoples lives, live and let live. It's hard enough to know yourself and live accordingly.
My first experience with a prostitute was in a brothel in Copenhagen. I was just out of college and she must have been five or six years my senior, tall and blonde just like a dream. Making small talk, before we got down to business, she asked me where I was from. At that point Los Angeles was home.
"Oh, wow," she said. "My husband is from LA, too."
I don't know whether it was true or not, and it certainly fucked with my old school values, but she used it to make me feel more at ease as I was clearly nervous. From that point on, she was in charge.
I've always remembered the event with warmth and, since prostitution was legal in Denmark, I never saw her as a victim.
I think that escorting, at it's best, is the feminine empowerment of prostitution. If the woman has the power and gets the profits from her work and enjoys the work, what some uptight people, male or female, think about what she does is irrelevant.
Best,
scott
Mrs. Kelly's Playhouse
Thanks for stopping by, Toy and adding from experience.
Hi, Fille-
I think it really important that when something happens to someone that they remember that they are not to blame. But...I (obviously) have a thing with labelling anyone a victim because I have too much respect for them. Rather than think they are a victim at any point, I would hope they would see that something happened that was not of their choosing, or they chose it in blindness...and that in neither case are they to blame. And now, that we have that out of the way...let's focus on making there be a good outcome.
And yes, I know that takes lots and that we are where we are. I just really love it when women feel empowered and hooking into the victim can be an insidious route to a downward spiral. And whatever works works.
And ditto, Annie...whatever works works. Thanks for chiming in.
I'm not so sure many are regarded as cold bitches, George. I hear lots of them who aren't. I'm a feminist and I'm not one. But the ones who are, are very loud and very mean. I've been on the end of their outrage and I've seen lots of it on the net here. I don't visit certain sites anymore because it was so vicious.
And even with them...it comes from a place of caring and pain and not knowing how to deal with it in any other way. I've just learned over time that the Victim is an insidious part of us that permeates and does tricksy stuff to our brains. I am loving brutal with it.
Hi, scott...your experience sounds like it was lovely and points to how this business can, indeed, be a powerful one for people.
And, no, it isn't always the case. Again, this is not a discussion about women who are doing it but not choosing to be there. It's a whole other ball of wax when that comes into play.
This post is simply incredible. I don't know if we would have engaged in yelling at each other Gillette. Perhaps that is because I only know you as a blogger I respect. I admit that I understand what you are thinking though. We definitely had (and still have) some differing viewpoints. I am so glad that we respect each other having those viewpoints and do not expect each other to simply change the person we are.
I won't deny that I truly hate a great number of things that are done in the name of feminism. I agree with your points that many things that are done in the name of feminism make women seem weaker instead of stronger. I won't go into specific points because this is your post, and I just wanted to send my Thank you for the post, and for showing the world that you recognize a person who has differing opinions and still respect that person. I know you have differing opinions, and I completely respect you as a person, as an individual, and I expect you to remain true to you, not to change because I think something different.
back in the day...before any of us existed... artists had patrons.
these relationships were difficult..
whore/client… artist/patron…
these relationships were difficult because they involved the politics of the day, power between bought and paid for…
power. period.
from what i can tell we will never reach equilibrium on the power issue. which makes me even more sad than the orchid situation.
and then don’t get me started: orchidectomy or hysterectomy? talk about power and language.
I concur G. All well & good. Sensible & all that. Age old issue that always could use a large dose of common sense. Some realistic research perhaps. Moving on into questions you've always wondered about but were afraid to ask the Docs about there's this from the CBC:
[http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/07/27/circumcision-sensation.html].
But the big problem with feminism was always the radical proposition that women were indeed human, and should be treated as such. The issue is human rights. And the rights of children with the question of exploitation of younger kids. That should not be countenanced or tolerated anywhere. It's dangerous, destructive, promotes ill health & the spread of disease (with the attendant problems of consent & understanding), and true criminality going on generationally. But that's the topic for another day.
Me, I survived the porn wars that Andrea_Dworkin and her colleague Catharine MacKinnon almost single handedly restarted in the mid to late 1970's. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin]. Victimhood, as effective as it was as an analysis or critique of the prevailing power structure & social system was a very lucrative industry for them. But again, that's a more complex topic in it's own right.
But years & decades were spent debating these essentially deeply personal issues of little or no real importance to the body politic at large. Poverty & lack of adequate medical care has and will kill more women than either porn or whores. Violence is a real & prevalent issue still, but this is not where their principal focus was ever laid. It was always all too frequently aimed against other women, their pleasure or their use of pleasure, or how they saw fit to use their bodies. Which in the end was an utterly useless waste of precious energy, effort & time. It about killed off feminism as a potent political force for the next 2 decades. But this was supposed to only be a short comment! Cheers, 'VJ'
Oh it's probably been said already, but feminism will never work as long as women blame men for everything and take none of the responsibilty for the situation. Feminism exists to support women, you wrote. Yes I agree, but my mother and sister are women and therefore it exists to support men to. ( or should do). Yes there may be a patricarchy but to the feminist I say walk into any Ghetto and tell any man he can be president, he will laugh in your face at your stupidity. Sorry I am coming across too strong.. There are as many male 'victims' or casualties, as there are female. the goal is to be a survivor and to work together and to see the deeper meaning, feel the humanity in the person standing opposite you and stop focusing on the fact I am man and you are woman....we are people, brothers sisters lovers....and it's about time women started loving and men started allowing themselves to be loved.....kiss. All of this is written with passion but with respect. I hope I don't come accross too strident or loud....kiss
Hi Gillette,
What an interesting post. This is a question I have never quite been able to make my mind up about, because the arguments for and against don't cancel each other out, they all exist together.
I love how you stood back and saw all the women involved (from sex-workers to hard-core feminists and presumably everyone in between) as being so in control of how they see themselves and other women. I also loved the line La Fille Mariee pulled out above.
Thanks,
GS
P.S. I'm going to link you ;)
I think what has been left out here is the anti-sex and anti-heterosexual tendencies in feminism. As a witness to its rise and early deployment, I remember the "pundits" saying that sex with men was a betrayal of sisterhood, that only masturbation or lesbianism would "break the patriarchy." The courtesan would then be by definition a traitor to her gender because her services are rendered to help men, often men with wives who are ignorant of, or powerless to prevent their men from acting this way.
Overlooked was the fact that courtesan work allowed women who otherwise would have been drones in the workforce (with all the disadvantages of being female and underpaid) to control their lives more effectively. It's like porn stars-- many of these women have become wealthy and in some cases, powerful business executives instead of waitresses at Hooters or exotic dancers. There's nothing wrong with either profession, but I'm sure that most strippers or wait staff in a restaurant would rather be wealthy and control their own destiny. If that's not feminism, I don't know what is.
Gillette,
As always, you provoke thought. I truly enjoy the eloquence of what you say.
Even though I am a man (check to confirm), I too was the "victim" of my life, my circumstances, my addictions, etc... My epiphany was similar to yours, in that I realized I would never heal until I was no longer a victim. I have hurt others and been hurt by them - In both instances I own and I am responsible for my side of the action.
I have a choice to not hurt others or be hurt by them - conversely I must take ownership of my role in hurting or being hurt.
Like so many other ideals or institutions (Catholicism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc.) Feminism is a wonderful ideal which was of value to those who held it in their heart for its true purpose and intent. Like any other ideal, the shortcomings of (wo)man as a human with frailties means it gets manipulated into a vehicle that its origins did not intend it to. 10,000 years of History is littered with humans screwing up what was once working as it was meant to. Not a slam on humans (I resemble on e from time to time) - it is simply who we are ans what we do.
Regarding Courtesan vs. Prostitute - You have taught me the distinct difference between the two and how one is based on self-loving and empowerment towards oneself while the other is meant to strip dignity, grace and hope from another.
Take care dear
BK
Hi, SM...you may not have shouted, but I would have been shouting at you and probably calling you all sorts of names. I was pretty intense, hehehee.
And truthfully, I no longer see us as that different, SM..at least not in any way that has any smidge of importance to me. I like different.
Hi, S. Hugs around orchids.
What I like in the power discussion is that when I look at the big picture and consider "the they," it seems hopeless on so many fronts (total non sequitur...have you folks been reading at Hedonistic Pleasureseeker? Go check it out... about the shit Bush is pulling). But..when I look in my environment, my life and the larger life I touch, I see great things happening. I choose to focus here with the knowledge that this will ooze out. People everywhere are wonderful. It's only a few that ruin it. Remember Pixar's "A Bug's Life?" I think I'm going to watch it today.
Hey, VJ- I don't believe that study with circumcision is the last word. Way too many other studies that say different. Plus, I've talked to a number of men who got circumsized later in life and they ALL report that they could last longer after the operation because sensitivity was down.
Ah, Andrea...so well intentioned. I agree that it took energy from places where that passion would have been much more useful..as you say: medicine, education, violence.
Warrior, if you didn't come across as strong or passionately opinionated It wouldn't be your Irish you, now would it?
I've found mountains of change when the discussion goes from an "us vs them" to just "us." I find it a much more interesting question to look at things and say...gee..we all agree this sucks so let's play and find a way that feels fun (not that a certain form of sucking wouldn't be really nice). I certainly wouldn't want to work with someone who was blaming me for all their problems. I'm not quite sure why anyone would.
Hi, GS and welcome here. Thanks for adding to the discussion, the link and for your kind words. I'll be visiting your home soon.
It isn't a cut and dry topic, is it? Not many are. I chose to go to what I see as the core dynamics of it. I'm sure others might see other cores but this one's mine. The relationship with the Victim is a big one in my life- I see it lots and watch how it affects the world. Makes me sad.
Good points, Tom...hope you wrote a post on that for the festival as your voice always adds lots of different considerations that I don't even go to initially.
Hey, Kahuna...thanks for stopping by and hope you and Babuska are well.
Deciding not to be a Victim is a very powerful position. Not always an easy one as it SOOO much more convenient to blame others, yes? (joke). But when I decided to not blame anyone out there, I felt relieved on so many levels!!! Shit may happen (and does) but I refuse to let myself stay there too long any more. Much more freedom in letting Victim go. Way more fun, too.
There's a line in the movie Mona Lisa Smile (with Julia Roberts): "you don't want them to find their own way. You want them to find your way."
That was my experience with first wave feminism. Being a courtesan wasn't their way. That's, of course, in addition to all the good comments above.
No it wasn't. I guess I'm so out of the loop that I don't even know all that "first wave of feminism" means. I mean, I've heard it before but haven't taken the time to study it.
I wouldn't worry about 'first wave' or whatever--you've certainly encountered the people I consider part of it.
Basically, the feminists who got upset at the concept that a woman could choose to stay at home. They said they were arguing for a woman's choice, but their actions demonstratd that they wanted other women to make the same choice they did.
With respect to sexwork, a feminist who stands by her principles would agree that it's a choice. But many would rage because sex workers didn't make the same choice they did (to be anti-men, or 'supporting the patriarchy' or however they interpreted the choice).
Gillette, I didn't write for the carnival (Lina has waaaay too much already, thankfully), but I did post something today you can read here.
Movements always take time. And in the transitions, they often go from one extreme to the other in their pendulum swing. It's all good. I just think we would all move along much faster if the Victim was lovingly given its place rather than running the show.
Cool, Tom...I'm so happy to hear she has lots. Kinda hoping this gets lost in the crowd..hehehehhe...unlike you, I am not one to engage in too much debate. Would rather just all speak our stuff and say..oh..that's an interesting perspective and move on to fun.
I shall suck you any time you allow me :-) and not forgetting any time my couple allows it too :-)
Oh Warrior...yer funny....
gillette, fucking brilliant post. especially the statement: "they won't care because they will feel so strong internally that they won't feel threatened by women who make a choice different than the ones they make."
we live in a fear-based, exclusionary culture, and in the lives of many people i've known (mostly women), difference is threatening. the people i've known who live this way always seem ready to judge the world before the world can judge them and seem to understand very little about the distinctions to be made between responsibility, blame, commitment, obligation, and choice. and what i've come to recognize is that, often, this sort of willingness to judge others is reflective of a gaping lack of confidence is one's ability to judge one's own decisions.
thanks for posting this!
You bet, Tara..thanks for stopping by.
Well said. Difference is scary at times when one looks out into the world...it can result in all sorts of hassles. Sometimes it leads to death (young gay men in the Western US). Look at what happened to The Dixie Chicks years ago..and how now they are heroes. It is NOT easy to be the different voice in the crowd. And..as my friend reminded me after reading this post: Victim does NOT let go easily. It will kill to keep alive.
I was a radical, Patriarchy Hating Feminist for more years of my life than not. I blamed men for their evil plan when they created The Patriarchy and its ultimate cause for every ill on the planet. Even jello was part of the sinister master plan (joke).
So basically, you were a stereotype and didn't know what the word patriarchy meant? Funny I how I learn of these people on the internet, but never in real, 3D life..... Sorry, but I find some parts of your story a little difficult to believe.
Well, Anon...I find it pretty stereotypical that people who decide to be rude on blogs always do so anonymously. And I'm not surprised you don't believe me because I don't believe you're sorry at all. So we're even.
I don't care what you believe or disbelieve and I'm not sorry one bit.
My commenting policy is to invite intelligent discussion. If you have more to bring to the discussion beside rude, trollish behavior I will happily post your comments. But if you decide to use this as a vehicle to be mean, you won't be published again.
I don't welcome rude people into my home and they aren't welcome here.
Any questions? I do like to be clear.
Honestly, I think "radical, Patriarchy Hating Feminist" is baiting and a stereotype. I've never met anyone like that, so I find it to be a bit of a stretch when I encounter such things in print.
First of all, why do I think you didn't know what patriarchy is? Because feminist theory has never posited that patriarchy is a "conspiracy of men" as you assert. It's a societal condition, developed through discourses that have evolved and reproduced through centuries. And yes, it's often enforced by anti-feminist women.
Usually, the only people describing patriarchy as a "conspiracy of men" are anti-feminists skewering feminists. These guys will throw around some of the American "star" names (already I see McKinnon and Dworkin dropped in the comments), but give basically no evidence they actually read any of them. So that's why I find this part of your testimony hard to believe. Unless you were joking/exaggerating about being a so-called manhater - no real person is that one dimensional.
I'm sorry if you don't find these criticisms "intelligent" - but after further reviewing the other comments, I'm starting to suspect that nothing other than fawning praise qualifies as "intelligent" anyway, so I guess I shouldn't bother.
For what it's worth, I'm anonymous because I'm wary of disclosing my e-mail address with a blogger account. I like my e-mail to be spam-free. I suppose I could make up a pseudonym, but that wouldn't really be much different, now, would it?
Hi and welcome back.
I am not baiting. I have no control over your perceptions. They are yours, not me. I am far from one dimensional. I also have to say that I keep hearing assumptions, labeling, and name calling with pretty much every line you write.
That's what I was. It may not be who you are, but it was who I was. I hated the Patriarchy, hated men. I was a radical, separatist feminist. I can't control whether you believe me or not, but that was my experience.
You also don't know me enough to know my oddball, gallows sense of humor and that I am fully aware that no one planned the patriarchy...it evolved. And if you think that basic man hating message wasn't a part of the angry feminist movement I was interested in, then you are mistaken and need to do some homework of your own. Not everyone was or is an angry feminist. I was.
I am a 51 year old woman who was very involved in the movement from ages 15 to 38. I took a number of women's studies courses in college...enough for a minor. I read tons of books outside the campus environment, was involved in many groups. My idol and role model was Mary Daly. I even wrote a paper on her that was published. If you know anything about her writing then you would understand where I was coming from and who I was. I don't know how anyone could consider her one dimentional, but, I guess from what you are saying here, you can.
I'm finding it really interesting that I don't hear the issue of feminism and sex work or the issue of women being empowered from within and refusing to see themselves as Victims being discussed by you.
What I hear from you is trying to claim authority and right to speak to the issue of feminism, as if there is only one definition of feminism and that definition has to be yours or "isn't real." What's that all about?
I can't control whether you decide to believe me or not. But if you don't believe me, choosing instead to decide and judge who I was and am today, then why come back here and continue the dicussion?
ps..sorry for all the typos..tired
"When I look at the big picture and consider "the they," it seems hopeless on so many fronts ... But..when I look in my environment, my life and the larger life I touch, I see great things happening."
This very much coincides with my experience, Gillette. I've encountered only minor instances of sexism, and even when confronted with those I was able to reject the victim role and overcome the situation. It was a choice I made because I have the confidence to do so. I realize that, psychologically, many women are not endowed with same confidence or sense of self-worth due to various circumstances.
I often feel conflicted when I identify as a feminist because there are many feminists that I simply don't care to be associated with. But I still think that their mission is valid. Misogyny is alive and well and the patriarchy is real. When I read the news and feminist blogs I'm horrified by the subtle and overt crimes that are inflicted on women in various forms, many of which are considered socially acceptable by a large portion of the populace. It can be rather depressing if I dwell on it.
But you're absolutely right about the whole victim consciousness and it's corruption of our experience. I'm constantly checking myself because it's so easy to let it seep in and tinge my perceptions. And yet I've somehow managed to build a life for myself in which being a woman is an asset, not a disadvantage.
Hey, Ruby...sure do miss your blog. Hope all is well.
I agree that sexism runs rampant. And if you don't find it glaringly apparent here, just take a trip to Greece or Italy and you'll find everywhere you look(as far as I'm concerned). I was pretty upset for most of my trips there watching how the women were treated and their acceptance of it. I almost asked to be taken back to the airport to leave a lovely sailing trip one time as I watched my host revert back into sexist pig. When he told me that he loved Greece for the freedom he felt, I asked him if he felt the women, his mother, had opportunity for that same freedom. He got it.
I understand that cultural variations make for women accepting their "lot." I also don't want to impose my American definitions of feminism onto other women who choose differently. But that doesn't mean I didn't talk about it with them and let the men know I didn't think they were cute, sexy or intelligent in the way they approached their women. Not an easy thing to do with a very polite in every other way host.
I wrote in a comment on Tom Paine's blog (maybe even here long ago) that I came to the theory that you can tell the status of women in a society by the way they do their laundry. In many cultures that women have a low status, they still have to go to the river to wash. In Italy, the machines took hours to wash, then all is air dried and ironed (even baby bibs). It takes days to complete. In the US, our clothes are washed, dried and folded, soft with generally no ironing needed in an hour.
I also agree that not all women have the same confidence I and many women I know have. And I support them with my actions and the reminder that they are NOT victims, but rather extremely strong, reslilient, powerful creators...look at how they are here and alive and functioning. That they have have been mistakenly taught dis-empowering beliefs and that those can change...they CAN believe in themselves and move forward with power so as to never be live in victim consciousness again.
Gillette (and all those who commented),
Thanks for a fascinating dicussion.
While I think the "Victim" attitude is important (and a key element of many movements other than feminism), I think Tom hit the nail on the head regarding "anti-sex." At least, I perceive the Feminism attitude toward sex work as essentially saying (in part): "men treat those in this work in such a degrading fashion that the work itself should be abolished rather than hoping men will reform their attitudes."
Why do they see it as degrading? Well, the politically correct explanation might be because in the client/whore relationship, the man sees the woman as a mere object, not a full human being.
OK, I may buy that as a generalization, but (a) it's not true in all instances; and (b) it's true of other types of work. Yes, some clients may think of a whore as a "piece of meat," just a collection of orifices with which he can stimulate himself. But there are some executives who consider a secretary just a faceless automaton to whom they can give a dictaphone tape and get back a typed letter. In both instances, the man may think of her as a mere object and doesn't accept her as being of equal status.
Feminism does, I imagine, disapprove of the boss/secretary relationship to some extent, but not as much as it disapproves of the client/whore relationship. Why is that? Fundamentally, I would guess, because Feminism is to some degree anti-sex -- thinking that fucking is inherently more degrading than typing.
This all sounds vaguely familiar. Perhaps this came up in the fast few months elsewhere in the SexBlogosphere?
Anyway, fascinating discussion.
I might take issue, though, with your statement that "My definition of prostitution is where anyone does anything they don't want to do just for the money, whether it's selling their body, a vacuum cleaner, or their time sitting at a computer terminal" While I am sympathetic to what I think you're saying, it is a continuum, a matter of degree, rather than a simple yes/no. Few of us would do what we do for a living if we were not paid. Most of us have aspects of the job we don't like, or times that we find it particularly frustrating. Some jobs are worse (for the particular person, not intrinsically), some jobs are better. But at what point along the continuum do you reach the point where someone "does anything they don't want to do just for the money"? We're all subject to some sort of compulsion, even if only economic necessity.
I know this sounds like a quibble, and maybe it is to some extent, but I think we need to think carefully about the question of degree . . . in order to avoid the same sort of mistakes some of those within the Feminism movement make.
Thanks again, for stretching my mind.
Chevalier
Hello, M. Chevalier-
I agree that there are degrees, and I think that whores fall under this, too. Many might choose something else if they didn't need the money and all like what they're doing more or less. The true test is, as you say, if they would continue what they're doing if they didn't need the money.
I'm referring to the ones in any profession who hate what they're doing, and only stay because they think they have no options.
The idea that feminism is fundamentally anti-prostitute is a false premise in the first place.
Feminism is and always has been sexual liberalism.
So as for the "surprise" that prostitution and feminism are reconcilable after all, bah-humbug.
I say that as an ardent anti-feminist. Women dress up like/gain money being whores and then say "but I'm kind of a feminist too!" imaging bewilderment from people.
But for anyone who actually understands feminism - the elevation of the feminine - it is no mystery at all.
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